This takes me back to Dzogchen Ponlop's question of how seriously do we, and by 'we' I mean I, take this. Again, "this" in Rebel Buddha means a practice designed to wake you up, fully. No pussy-footin' around. I had what felt at first to be a horrifying thought when I read Sommers' interview with Strawson that I had my argument in my last post all backwards. Suppose the reward for an honest meditation practice was waking up to this very realization that we are not free, at least not ultimately? Strawson argues that this is not such a terrible thing, and if you were there you'd be rubbing shoulders with the likes of Jiddu Krishnamurti. Though you'd not relate to other human beings as you did before, you would have compassion, albeit as an aesthetic experience (merely aesthetic?). It's not so horrifying after giving it some thought and breathing a few thousand breaths while not giving it a thought. This may be the truth about human beings, but it doesn't change anything. It's like death. We want to know for certain that we live after we die, but no one knows. No one. No, not even you! You will die, though, as will I. We'll just have to live with the uncertainty of what that means for now. Which is what I'll have to do about free will.
I cannot disagree with Strawson's logic:
- You do what you do, in any given situation, because of the way you are.
- So in order to be ultimately responsible for what you do, you have to be ultimately responsible for the way you are — at least in certain crucial mental respects.
- But you cannot be ultimately responsible for the way you are in any respect at all.
- So you cannot be ultimately responsible for what you do.
And yet in a small sense it seems that I make choices that determine (or at the very least influence) the outcome of my simple days. Could be this is illusion, but it's a pretty good one. Maybe a useful one, too. Would meditation disillusion me of this? If it did, would I care? There is a lot I love about this thick human comforting mess. My husband, daughter and I attended an open mic poetry night at a local coffee shop this week. I didn't know what to expect. Turns out it was a college scene, and it seems I'm getting older. The place was crowded with younger faces and small tattered composition books full of passionate scrawls. There were no uncomfortable gaps between poets stepping up to the mic to spew out a few words, though I did detect the sidelong looks and shaking hands of many an introvert. A few verses caught my full attention. One line I can remember but not properly give credit to its creator is "Nothing never happens." Oh well. There it was, though, all that poetic passion--young angst, love unrequited, the usual rhymes. Every once in awhile someone stepped up with something sparkling to say that made me audibly let out breath, or smile out loud, or long for that one thing so intensely. Words flew around the room, a thick mess of them, lies mostly, but beautiful ones, and I was willing to listen to the dull ones just for the privilege of hearing a unique turn of phrase that could alter my perspective on everything forever. That's how it is with poetry, and that's how it is with being human. So I don't know, now, if I want to leave all that. Perhaps I am like the American Buddhists Ponlop writes about who would like to wake up only 50%--just enough to get past the crazies. I still lack the faith that there's more than that to wake up to.
On the other hand, what can it hurt to be open to the possibility? I continue to read Sommers' book. The next interview on situational ethics interests me more than the question of ultimate free will. You'll be hearing from me on that one.
Very nice !
ReplyDeleteWell, with even a 50% enlightenment we can be almost dead certain that we are largely out of control and make precious few real choices. We can see ourselves as juggernauts of habits in a dance with Shiva. Whether we are 100% automatons or a bit less does not really matter because even if we only really choose 10% of the time, that insight is enough to pretty much unravel the illusion's fabric enough that the emperor might as well be naked.
BTW: thanks for the mention, even with the ironic lack of a link. So as a supplement, here you go: Here's me smiling at ya!
Aw, man! That was ironic. In a gesture (jester) of goodwill, I'll remedy that!
ReplyDelete"Juggernauts of habits in a dance with Shiva." Excellent!
I'm enjoying Sommers' book. I'd still like to rail against the realization of lack of control, but why not just go with it--play with it even? Will it change the enjoyment of poetry and other messy human endeavors? It must change perception of drama. Interesting. My biggest problem du jour is that I have three books I'm equally interested in reading, one day off of work. How to choose????
First I am not sure I accept the first premise...DO We do what we do because of the way we are? or Do we do what we do because of circumstances and how we FEEL in any given instant? What we PERCEIVE at any given hour...what we BELIEVE on any given day..Aldonza the whore becomes Dulcinea. WHY? because of what she WAS? or was it because of what Don Quixote idealized her as? Their chance encounter, or his love of virtue which he extended to her by his overt projection and idealistic FANTASY?..
ReplyDeleteSecond, I am not sure I accept the validity of the conclusion which he would suggest here, I simply do not believe it must follow logically. We CAN be ultimately responsible for what we DO, even if it is NOT a result of our BEING...the essence of who (or the way) we ARE. It may be a nervous reflex not unlike the flapping wings of the headless chicken which causes the first domino to drop in a series of events in any Rube Goldburg machine of causation and effect. Does the fact that the chicken has no head or mental acuity make it any less RESPONSIBLE for frightening the child who encounters it?
Third I disagree that we can not be in ANY WAY responsible for the way we are in any respect....for by ONE decision or thot generated by any series of stimuli which WE PROCESS deliberately and with INTENT, do we CREATE the PATHWAY (in CERTAIN respects) by which we take ownership of the resultant ACT.
Fourth, the conclusion that THEREFORE we cant be ultimately responsible for what we do (those acts I refer to in my third objection) is part of a fallacious argument which is NEITHER VALID (REQUIRING the stated conclusion) nor SOUND (meaning that the premises are TRUE or FACTUAL) It would seem that there are at least TWO logical fallacies in this syllogism that keep it from being persuasive.
I believe one of the most profound weaknesses in our education system is that LOGIC and REASONING is not taught until the philosophy 200 level classes at our Universities. Simply by the use of VEN diagrams one can discover whether the all/some(any)/potential portions of the premises even intersect.
NO ONE is fooled by the claim that Smoking is bad for you BECAUSE my grandmother smoked and she is DEAD now. (even a child understands that she could have been run over by a reindeer)
When you said you couldn't argue with the claims made, it indicated to me that you just didn't read them closely, or you had better things to do at that moment. I love the way you are exploring so many philosophical ideas, and using them to make sense of your life experience. Make sure they are more trustworthy than a mechanic who tells you you need new ball joints on your brand new car. Thanks for letting me read thru these blogs. I have really enjoyed those that I have explored so far.
Thank you for an alternate view on this. I'm not a classically trained logician, nor even a poorly trained one. Likely I did not read as closely as someone more logical might. (I could claim that I can't help it. It's just the way I am). However, I don't believe I'm buying new ball joints either. As I understand Somers' argument, not being ULTIMATELY responsible does not mean that we are not in ANY WAY responsible. He writes that yes, we can make choices that affect small changes. A sedentary individual may act on a desire to be healthy and enjoy a positive outcome. It's a matter of sphere. Genetics and early conditioning are out of reach of our will. We are born into a larger culture that further predisposes us to certain behaviors. I don't know about you, but I have not managed yet to plumb the depths of my motivations, my driving forces. I often act first, think later. What seems right may only be the habitual. I remain convinced that we do not have ultimate free will, but that it may not hurt to act as if we do.
ReplyDeleteFREE will...unfettered? probably not, but even walking against the wind we have the power to counteract SOME imposing forces...certainly not the forces of nature...and probably not even the forces of love. Genetics is a powerful force, tho the identical twin who drinks and his brother who doesn't for the IDENTICAL REASON, because their father did, makes me wonder...why the difference. I have TRIPLETS who are VASTLY different and oh so similar in some respects. Predisposition is of course a given...I believe, based on your blogs, that you ARE very logical... I wonder if we ever really know "just the way I am", when a new idea or discovery can upset the applecart in an instant. Why you ask are we as we are?...plumb the depths, I doubt I ever will, but to some degree I think I can look beneath the surface and find the idea of WILL, at least agency within reach. Impulse...an interesting question you raise. So few THINK even later. When you equate RIGHT with HABIT, I smile...I have had that same thot. I have even thot of RIGHT as "comfortable"... I agree we certainly do NOT have ULTIMATE and complete "Unfettered AGENCY"...and yet... if we ACT as if we do...then in effect, Don't we?
ReplyDeleteNo, I don't think we do even if we act AS IF we do. But then again...
ReplyDeleteAlways of more than one mind in these arguments. It feels intuitively true that beneath the surface a concept of agency is within reach. Habit? Here's my honest answer: I don't know.
Maybe a more interesting question is whether or not it matters, in the sense that is the world a better place or the universe more balanced or whatever subjective interpretation you give 'better,' if an individual believes in free will?
Thanks for the sincerity in your replies and the thinking you put into them. Really the TIME it takes you...you are obviously a very busy woman, mother and philosopher, with a wonderful sense of self. To answer your last question...I am like you, I don't know about the world or universe, but I believe it does affect our inner self and relates to that idea of Purpose, I brought up somewhere else in my comments. If my Choices being determinant don't matter...even a little within the realm of my INDIVIDUALITY...then certainly have no affect on the world or universe...IF they DO matter, maybe my individuality can in turn affect a broader sphere. (after thot... I heard Michio Kaku talk once about alternate universes and time lines... what would make them different than this one if not for AGENCY exerted by those in them?) Again...I like your thinking.
ReplyDeleteThe Essence Of "Jen"
ReplyDeleteBeing Human, Humanity
JEN: This is a word from the Chinese. It means the art of being human, humanity. It means love and kindness towards one’s fellow man. It means being charitable and having benevolent feelings towards one’s fellow man.
Jen is the basis of the Teachings of Confucius
Interesting coincidence? I think not.